[English Sub] Making the Game Easy Doesn't Benefit Anybody [Momochi]

[English Sub] Making the Game Easy Doesn’t Benefit Anybody [Momochi]

コメント（20件）

Cafekun says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

If you want to bring new players in, add new characters that will interest the casuals. Then they will try to learn whatever kind of mechanics there are. This is why SSBU is so popular.

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WoWisdeadtome says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

The execution barrier is not the barrier that turns people off. Capcom was on the right track when they said strong zoning turns off new players. So does frame traps, footsies, oki, mixups and just generally not understanding that winning is more about waiting your turn and using the right moves at the right times than it is mashing buttons and wiggling the stick. DBFZ couldn’t reel in the casuals for keeps either and that was in spite of auto combos and Dragonball Z. The barrier to entry runs far deeper than execution and to “fix” it would remove pretty much everything that makes a fighting game a fighting game. The players that enjoy the game will get over the execution barrier whether that barrier is high or low. Every one of us started out being bad.

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oiman01011010 says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

i feel like almost everyone in the fgc is a moron that cant differentiate between simplicity and difficulty, and they cant understand the connection between the two. also no one seems to have actually talked with non-fg gamers to understand why they dont like the genre.
the main problem isnt that the games are too difficult, its that the games are too complex, which also raises difficulty. they require too much to simply play at a base level.

Apex may have more mechanics than SF but those mechanics are way simpler and require less knowledge.
for example, attacking in apex is pretty much the same, you aim and gun and shoot. the only complexity this has is recoil pattern which is separate for each gun (20 total) thought some dont have a pattern.
attacking in SF not only requires additional movement inputs most of the time, but there are dozens of moves from each character (30+ chars). and to make matters worse each move also has its own frame data (startup/active/recover) and type (low/high/overhead) with additional properties depending on the success of the attack (block/hit/counter). these things are critical to learn otherwise you will get punished simply for attacking, whereas in apex you are never punish for shooting

the other big problem is about mixups. most people dont like playing games that rely on a guessing mechanic. furthermore, its a bad mechanic for competitive games because it requires no skill.

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WoWisdeadtome says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

Long post, so a TL;DR is provided.

I think people put too much emphasis on the execution barrier. I don’t think the ease of inputs actually makes much difference. The issue is a new player with no understanding of things like frame traps, oki, mixups and whatnot…all they see is people hitting buttons, throwing out moves and winning games, but it takes a long time to learn the reasons why good players use the moves they do and why they use them when they do. A new player doesn’t understand why pressing all those buttons works for others and yet they always seem to get counter hit. They get punished for unsafe moves but don’t know that they need to do the same if they get the chance or they try to punish a move that’s -4 with a heavy normal. It frustrates them, they blame the character or the game itself, and they quit. Capcom was never wrong when they identified that intense zoning turns off a lot of new players, they’re on the right track with that line of thought but it goes much much deeper into the core mechanics of the game than that.

It’s the same reason people quit Dark Souls games as well, they don’t understand that you can’t mash buttons when you are at frame disadvantage. In both games the best defenses are built around baiting and spacing, not blocking or dodging (though your defense should also include those tools). I’ve heard some decent fighting game players say that you can tell a new player that is about to get a lot better by the fact they start to block a lot. It indicates that they are trying to figure out where their openings are. They’ve realized they can’t mash when they are at negative frames but haven’t quite worked out when push back, moves that are 0 on block or plus frames allow them to take their turn. The thing is these are fundamental challenges for players of the fighting game genre as a whole, take them away and it’s not a fighting game anymore so there’s nothing you can do to fix this state of affairs if you’re going to continue to make fighting games at all. Think about it, Dragonball FigtherZ you can be at least somewhat effective by just mashing buttons and using auto combos and as far as dragging in the casual audience, well, what franchise would be preferable to DBZ? DBFZ was a hot mess of rage quits for the first few weeks while the casuals got to work on rage quitting out of the game entirely. Clearly easy execution and franchise recognition are insufficient to solve the player retention problem and the fighting game players kept cleaning up the casuals in both SFV and DBFZ exactly as expected regardless of the ease of inputs.

That being said SFV in trying to limit characters to make the game easier to learn made them feel almost like shells of their old selves. It’s difficult to explain but there just wasn’t as much to be done with a character if that makes any sense. I eventually settled on Boxer after a few character crises in this game, I really liked the way he plays off of his V-skill but there are other characters that barely even use their V systems. Frankly, why were the V-skills not just regular moves? Why did some characters lose moves or have their moves radically altered for this game? I have no idea. On a side note I’m a charge character player for life and Capcom saying they wanted to reduce the number of charge characters personally disappointed me. Unintuitive to play are they? I never thought so, but then *I would* say that.

TL;DR: In short Capcom wasn’t wrong when they identified that intense zoning turns off new players. The problem is that the frustrations a new player faces with learning a fighting game go far beyond just that. They were on the right track but it is the core mechanics of fighting games that turn away new players, not the execution. Understanding that you input a move wrong is easy, understanding that you picked the wrong time to try that move is not. DBFZ couldn’t pull in the casuals for keeps with auto combos and Dragonball Z, so it’s not the execution barrier. And YES, it is possible to enjoy being bad at the game with other people who are also bad at it. It’s how all of us got started, isn’t it? The game, first and foremost, has to be fun to experiment with, SFV’s simplified characters did not provide that.

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Th3Sh1n1gam1 says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

In general, people want ghe game to be easy enough to at least do things that feel cool. Looking at different genres, there’s RTS and the much simpler MOBA. RTS inherently is extremely difficult amd doesnt hand hold you at all whether it be easy to find recommendations or how to proceed with adaptable gameplans. The most difficult thing, timing build and economic cycles with combat decisions, which often leads to making 10s to hundreds of difficult decisions in 30 seconds, and there’s nobody there to help you. While the depth, skill ceiling and intrigue are all there, the bare minimum skill level is too high for a majority of any playerbase. (Even after going f2p, sc2 only has around a few million unique players per month globally.)
If you then look at much easier games that spawned from rts, mobas, these games still hold depth, and intrigue, but one thing that was lowered significanly is the skill ceiling. If mobas are a 3 story building, rts are a sky scraper. Seeing as the moba environment has consistently over 1 million unique accounts player per day, it’s pretty obvious what lowering the skill ceiling does. While over 80% of the moba playerbase don’t even reach halfway towards the skill ceiling of their game, the things made accessible to them are easy enough that sometimes it’s unrecognizable where their level of skill is. (This is why players blame each other so much for losing games while not taking into account their own mistakes.) While this leads to toxicity, it also leads to opportunity to prove their own capabilities of paticularlly easy tasks. And it’s this easy improvement pattern that keeps players in the game.

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Valter Filipe says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

The game isn’t easy. Doing combos, though, is easy. Now, the combos do play a big part in the learning curve but they’re not what exclusively determines the difficulty level.

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kmculture enzo says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

Making the game easy or more accessible don’t make the game appealing for new Comers… Now making sfv I belive this game its the worse sf I ever see…they when back about 25 years… starting the approach to fan base.. Throw loops, abusing ex factors no defense no normals punishment… Still capcom its hidden all of this by relying on new a outfits new stages butt getting done with the game mechanics and problems… All of these things because they want to fallow ki which end up really bad for Microsoft….

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ِ says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

it should b illegal 2 not b good at something
u should b hanged in the fucking GALLOWS if ur not good at something meaningfully competitive by the age of 26

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FaythsDream says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

I 100% agree, enjoyment in playing comes from challange. When a game is difficult you want to improve, meeting the challange head on by consistently getting better is what makes the experience enjoyable. If the game is too easy there’s nothing to aim for no challange to meet, you’ll go find something else that challenges you. You keep players by making the challange rewarding, you lose players by making it an empty victory.

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QuartzResonance says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

One reason I have trouble with fighters is that I play almost exclusively on portable consoles (3DS/Vita/GBA/NGPC), and if you wear out the buttons on those, you can’t really buy a new controller. I know emulation is possible for most of them now, but I like playing BlazBlue on my Vita.

I guess I need to learn not to press buttons as hard as I do.

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Rohan Sensei says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

That’s what happened to Mortal Kombat.

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Z Bo says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

That is not true

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Hero Kiryu says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

Ppl are complaining about fairness.. not easiness.. dont equate the two together

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Lord oft error says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

Watch a no commentary speedrun and hold a controller.

There’s your easy mode.

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PhantomEmperor says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

I completely understand what he is saying and I plan to make a in depth vid on this, but we live in a age where accessibility sells. I’ve been playing fighting games 20 years and back in the day there was no YouTube, guides, combo vids etc people had to learn by getting your ass beat and learning with dedication. Pretty much now fighting games are getting worse in lowering skill gaps and now execution is being dumb down for “accessibility” all this is actually making the new generation of players way worse than before cause they are used to things like auto combos and comeback mechanics there’s less emphasis on neutral and fundamentals. As a whole the mindset you needed to have to survive back then with how difficult games were is no longer here. Overall I get more accessibility means more people which allows the game to sell for a potential sequel and bigger community but I sure as hell hate it now but understand it.

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Valmer Livesmatter says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

True more new scrubs is wat you mean

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Valmer Livesmatter says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

Thats why old school gamers are the best the foundation was hard then.

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Roberto Garibay says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

That’s how I feel about blazblue cross tagg battle

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Bruce Jeckson says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

The problem with fighting games nowadays is that they lack a decent single player environment, where casuals can have fun and learn the game mechanics.
It’s all about multiplayer, where the noob gets instantly destroyed and gives up on the game before giving it a chance.
It’s just ridiculous for the average gamer.

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Ahegaliant says:

2019年8月1日 at 10:56 AM

In regards to fighting games and niche activities in general, nothing concerns me more than inclusivity and broad appeal. I want to know that if someone’s playing with me, or hanging out with me and mine, it’s not because it was easy or catered to them, but because they belong and share that with the others.

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[English Sub] Making the Game Easy Doesn’t Benefit Anybody [Momochi]

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